It turns out that some conservatives not only think that government shouldn’t seek to advance social or economic justice, they think that religion should not work for social justice either. Conservative spokesperson Glen Beck is urging Christians to refuse to attend any church preaching social justice.
“I beg you, look for the words ‘social justice’ or ‘economic justice’ on your church web site,” Beck urged his audience. “If you find it, run as fast as you can. Social justice and economic justice, they are code words. Now, am I advising people to leave their church? Yes!”
The idea that a Fox commentator would push people to leave their churches as a principled conservative stand, predictably, is a little controversial. Maybe that is the point for Mr. Beck — to get attention — but now it looks like his quest for attention may have backfired. There seems to be a movement forming to boycott Mr. Beck.
I’m reading that Jim Wallis, president of Sojourners, a network of progressive Christians, is urging Christians to stop watching Mr. Beck’s TV program — unless Beck apologizes.
Wallis writes, “You asked people to leave their churches, a serious thing, so until we have a public dialogue about this, or until you apologize, I will keep asking people to stop watching your show.”
Wallis addresses Mr. Beck: “You first urged Christians to leave churches that preached social justice. Today, you went further, saying that social justice “is a perversion of the gospel.” Well, that says it all. Perhaps you don’t realize that most Christians believe social, economic, and racial justice are at the heart of the gospel, not a perversion of it..”
In this clip of Mr. Beck’s radio show, in which Beck responds to a Catholic listener who complains that his daughter is being taught about “social justice,” Beck says “social justice” as taught today is a perversion of the gospel taught by Jesus.
How Christians should behave is a great question. The scripture teaches we should overcome evil with good. Should Christians boycott Glen Beck until he apologizes? Or maybe put him on the rack until he relents?
Christians must have faith in the notion that truth itself is a great force. Mr. Beck is a self-anointed jester. Sometimes only a jester can provoke needed and important discussions. Maybe Mr. Beck’s comments about Christianity will provoke some Christians, who prior to this agreed with his every word, to question their unqualified allegience to his point of view, and maybe his comments will cause in-depth independent thinking.
Christians should thank Mr. Beck for helping to raise an important issue, an important question about the purpose and aim of churches and the message of Christian teaching.
There is a serious question of how much power Christianity and the ideas of Christianity, many of which are shared both by other religions and by non-theistic ways of living together of the non-religious in our society, have. Our society also greatly values and perhaps worships wealth, power and earthly status. It invests heavily in professions of religion but is also a place where great amounts of wrongdoing are done.
There is obviously a huge strand of social justice material in the Bible. Jim Wallis, who can be described as a social justice evangelical, tells of what happens if you cut the social justice material our of the Bible and how the book falls literally falls apart. Interpretations of the Bible will even say that those who are true followers of the word are are also doers of social justice. However the Bible is filled with varied often contradictory material, and so there are strains of Christianity that emphasize other parts of the Bible (personal struggles with sin obedience and salvation, male dominnance, discomfort with sexuality) and deemphasize the social justice parts. It is also arguable that American Christianity is a mile wide and an inch deep, so that many or most American Christians have adopted a version that allows them to be relatively comfortable with their own lifestyle including whatever social injustice they benefit from. Many people particularly do not believe that the “hard sayings of Jesus” such as loving your enemies and giving your stuff to the poor have much authority or value, as a way of living this life anyway.
Beck is quite coherent in his negative feelings about social justice but somewhat incoherent about what is bad about it and what it is a “code word” for, other than guilt by association with nazis, communists and Rev. Jeremiah Wright (whose Chicago church is well known for the good it does in its community, whatever you think of his more inflammatory sound bites).
In a later episode, Beck says that while it’s fine with him if people do good individually, Jesus never said that good should be done by the government . That is certainly true given that the government Jesus experienced was an empire occupying his society by military force. However Biblical writers from the time when Israel was ruled by its own kings made it clear in Psalms, prophets like Isiah and Amos, and Deuteronomy, that the duty of a king and the rich and powerful is to rule justly and particularly to champion the poor. Jesus is clearly invested in that, as in his first sermon in Luke, his interaction with Roman tax collectors and the religious authorities who eventually have him killed. We must interpret what Jesus would have us do with the power we have to influence policy in a state that has democratic institutions that Jesus does not experience.
Opinion media activists like Beck both motivate those who share his beliefs and emotional state, and influence many others in that direction. Beck is urging people to leave churches that champion social justice (in theory many or most of them) and go to ones that don’t. This is arousing a debate about both the importance of social justice and perhaps also, if you accept its importance, the means to bring it about. Specifically things like whether the government can and should bring about social justice, and if so, in what combination with other social institutions and actions by people and groups of people in society. And perhaps why people who read the Bible and claim to follow Jesus accomodate to as much social injustice as they do.
The last question we should consider is why people like Beck get so much time in the media as opposed to other people. The media and particularly Fox as its most unabashedly partisan part of it, serve their owners an help them wield the power they want. The media, or particular parts, don’t always get the specifics they want but they always set the tone of the public debate, functioning as a kind of public square where we learn the thoughts of others. The focus here of course was the health care and the Obama presidency, but these are short term goals. Beck’s actions set the tone for much more.
Do the folks trapped in Dayton’s west side deserve the “East End” version of social justice (c/o St. Vincent DePaul and St. Mary’s Development Corp)? Or should they just wait for social justice from the government–as distributed by Raleigh Trammell?
Inflammatory language from folks like Rev. Jeremiah Wright just makes it easier for the Trammell’s to evade public scrutiny.
Eric, thanks for your comments. As I said, I think Glen Beck has done us all a favor by highlighting this whole concept of “social justice.” It’s a matter, I believe, for those who take their spiritual and religious beliefs seriously, but it is also a big question for our democracy, in general. People in power have always used the poor to their own advantage. But only a corrupt democracy allows corruption.
Stan, thanks for your comments. I’m wondering what might happen if our inch deep Christianity, you spoke of, could be vitalized and whether some new version of a Great Awakening might be possible — with profound social implications. It’s funny how distorted Christian teaching has become via TV preachers promoting a “prosperity gospel,” or emphasizing sham healings, or know-nothings advancing the idea that the world is 6000 years old. I’ve got to wonder if there could be a 21st century gospel emerge that might become a social force. There is much energy in modern Christianity, the U.S. version, that seems to be misspent.
know-nothings advancing the idea that the world is 6000 years old
Who would you designate to cure these folks (and their children) of their ignorance?
Justice:
1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : judge c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness
Most people do not have a clue what Justice is. Social justice is probably complicating things further. Are we saying impartial before the eyes of society?
Social justice means something different to each and every person. Why are people arguing about social justice when it is unlikely that any of them have even defined what they believe this very ambiguous topic to be.
For example, I find the use of force to be socially unjust. I do not find people starving to death to be socially unjust. I do find forcing a farmer to feed a starving person socially unjust. I would find the actions of a charitable farmer kind. I would find the actions of the hoarding farmer cold, but not unjust.
The remedy for the “supposed abuse’ of free speech is MORE free speech!
Isn’t that the mantra of the progressive left?
That is until someone exposes flaws in THEIR thinking! Then they want to muzzle them. Stifle them. Boycott them! Shut them down!
Where did Jesus EVER say that the government (or churches) should enforce economic and social justice?!?!
Let me answer that. NO WHERE!
It is up to individuals.
But to progressives, this should be done by force. Nice. And if nothing else works, bring the force of the state against the individual.
Then you said, “The scripture teaches we should overcome evil with good. Should Christians boycott Glen Beck until he apologizes? Or maybe put him on the rack until he relents?”
So the implication is that Glenn Beck is evil?!!?!? rotflol
Oh yeah, let’s PUT HIM ON THE RACK UNTIL HE RELENTS!!!
Welcome to the Inquisition of the progressive left! This alone proves Beck’s point that there are things to be worried about from you people…..yes, I said it….YOU PEOPLE!!! ;-)
Mike, it is astounding how the word of God has been twisted by the Christian left. The Bible is replete with exhortations to social justice, mostly concerning an individual refraining from doing evil and doing good. There are exhortations for kings to help the widows and poor. There is nothing in the Bible to support the proposition that the Government should be increased in mammoth proportions and to, under threats of violence, to redistribute wealth.
Should churches preach social justice? Yes, if it means personal social justice, acting with fairness towards all and befriending widows, orphans, and other poor people. No, if it means trying to get the government involved in wealth redistribution.
I always knew Glenn Beck was lead by things other then God. I have never listened to him for that reason. Instead I filled by time listening to preachers such as Charles Stanley. As Christians we need to spend more time in the bible, then listening to hate propaganda. He may have sounded smart to many, but I bet Satan would sound smart and knowledgeable too.
Maria,
How did you know that Beck was lead by things other (than) God? Are you judging him? You know what Jesus says about that.
What is hateful about Glenn Beck? It is hard to believe that you are able to discern that he is hateful having never listened to him.
You think that Beck sounds smart? Why do you think that? I personally don’t think that Beck is at all bright. I would suggest that you watch him and see that he isn’t a very intelligent man.
Lastly, I am correct to understand that you think that Satan’s being smart means you should not trust smart people?
BTW, for which of the stupid people who ran for President did you vote? Ah…you don’t have to answer that one.
“Do the folks trapped in Dayton’s west side deserve the “East End” version of social justice (c/o St. Vincent DePaul and St. Mary’s Development Corp)? Or should they just wait for social justice from the government–as distributed by Raleigh Trammell?”
Please explain this.
“Where did Jesus EVER say that the government (or churches) should enforce economic and social justice?!?!
Let me answer that. NO WHERE!”
The government Jesus lived under was an occupying empire, which was totally uninterested in economic or social justice. Jesus dealing with its agents, such as the tax collectors, showed he expected social justice from them, and even got it when the tax colletor returns his ill gotten gains. He says similar things about the religious leaders and how they exploited the people. Assuming John the Baptist spoke for Jesus when he talks to the soldiers in Luke, you get the same things. And there is a lot of this throughout the Old Testament, most of which Jesus says he is fulfilling.
“The Bible is replete with exhortations to social justice, mostly concerning an individual refraining from doing evil and doing good. There are exhortations for kings to help the widows and poor. There is nothing in the Bible to support the proposition that the Government should be increased in mammoth proportions and to, under threats of violence, to redistribute wealth.”
Kings were of course the government during the time they were writing about. Their proportions were pretty mammoth (See descriptions of the wealth of Solomon, or Ahab’s stealing Naboth’s Vinyard in Kings.) The prophets condemned the rich from taking the wealth of the poor. What would they have thought of the effects of the mortgage debacle which cost enormous amounts of wealth?
Admittedly the Bible was not written in the times like we have with a capitalist economy and a democracy funded by campaign contributions. So we have to figure out what would Jesus, and the prophets whose tradition he carried on, do. Would they say “wow, they have capitalism now, so everything is ok” or “greed is good”? Would they say, “social justice is ok if individuals do it outside government, but bad if they do it through government?” Or would they expect everyone to do social justice all the time, both through the government (which people in theory and at least somewhat in practice have some control over) and outside of it as well?
“Most people do not have a clue what Justice is. Social justice is probably complicating things further. Are we saying impartial before the eyes of society?
Social justice means something different to each and every person. Why are people arguing about social justice when it is unlikely that any of them have even defined what they believe this very ambiguous topic to be.
For example, I find the use of force to be socially unjust. I do not find people starving to death to be socially unjust. I do find forcing a farmer to feed a starving person socially unjust. I would find the actions of a charitable farmer kind. I would find the actions of the hoarding farmer cold, but not unjust.”
Explaining what justice is is not always easy, and has some “I know it when I see it” qualities, particularly when you get into “eye for an eye” discussions (that was actually an alternative to neverending blood feuds that happened as people sought retribution for the most recent injury). However I have some problems with the idea that allowing people starve is just but making society feed people who are starving (by taxing people to pay for food stamps or aid to places like Haiti) is unjust. Or Biblical. For example, look at Matthew 25, 41-42 where those who saw the least person hungry and did not feed him is to head to eternal fire.
Stan,
I like almost everything you posted. I would ask for one clarification.
Do you think that if you had no wealth because you created no value for those around you…saw a starving person…robbed a woman walking down the street…gave the money to the poor person (minus administration fees, of course)…you would be fulfilling the demands of God? Is this really what anyone thinks the Bible demands?
Ephesians 4:26 “Thieves must give up stealing; rather let them labor and work honestly with their own hands so as to have something to share with the needy.” The larger question is whether we should have starving people at all, as there are many millions around the world. Much of that is connected to how society is organized economically as well as to things like climate and population. Even in this country, there are many who are unemployed and don’t get to “create value.” Some are disconnected from the economy and some are not. Are we responsible for this, and is it fulfilling the demands of God?
“Do the folks trapped in Dayton’s west side deserve…?” Please explain this.
http://www.east-end.org/
Not to fault the Dayton Urban League. (Although now we have more insight into the West Side politics that the Urban League has to deal with.)
If you consider yourself a Christian, and you know that someone is in need, and your government (who, if not voted for by you, was voted for by your country men & women) takes from you the money that is needed to care for those in need, then why are you outraged? Why do you cry out that you’re being robbed, and that you are being treated unjustly? Why, in fact, would you not, upon finding out that there are those in need, seek out ways to help them further?
If you and your family were the ones in need, would you not want those who could do so to think and act in such a way? Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (Matthew 22:21), and “Whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me, and He will also say to those on His left, whatever you neglected to do for the least of these, you neglected to do it for Me.” (Matthew 25:40).
So I ask of you, who claim to believe in the word of Jesus Christ, does it matter if it passes through the hands of Ceaser before it then goes to God? Would Jesus argue about what is socially just, or would spend his time finding ways to help those who suffer? Social and justice are only words. What matters are the actions taken.
Michael,
Are you serious? Why am I outraged because the majority has voted to take my money? What if they voted to force me into labor? Would that be okay? Should I instead of working the 12 hours that they compel me to labor, instead work 16 or 18? What was wrong with slavery? According to the Bible maybe nothing. What do you think?
If my family were in need, I would not steal from the just possessor of wealth. I can say it definitively. I think that depriving a person of the product of their labor is among the worst of all sins. I think it is in the Ten Commandments. Maybe repeatedly. At least, Do Not Steal and Do Not Covet Your Neighbors Possessions. From a Natural Rights perspective, I can argue that it also applies to Do Not Kill.
“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s.” So you think that Jesus was saying that Caesar had some stuff and God had some stuff? I always thought that Jesus was being sly and saying that all things are from God; all things are God’s; therefore let Caesar claim what is God’s. It is not Caesar’s, It is God’s!
“Whatever you do to the least of these you did to Me.” You are right. As I remember the story, Jesus was in fact put to death by the government. I guess He was right. Because you had a different opinion, you thought that He should die as a sacrifice for you. You now think that about all of us. We should sacrifice to serve you. Did Jesus tell his Disciples to “go forth and steal?” I must have read a different book than did you.
You think that Ceasar is an agent for God? You think that God wants people to be compelled to sacrifice by government? Jesus did argue about what was just. Jesus argued with the Pharisees, the Romans.
You are right, words are only words. I hope that you do not actually believe the ones that you profess to believe. I hope you have a nice day marauding.
Wow jesse, that’s just great. Some guy comes on here and talks about helping others and giving to the needy and you not only make yourself out to be a victim and a slave, but you rip him a new a-hole & call him a marauding hypocrite. I mean, I’m not a christian or anything, but seriously if Jesus was alive today, he would even call you a prick!
East End Community Services and their affiliates do a lot of good things. Click on their funder lists from that link and you’ll find some government programs listed. Same with Wesley Community Center among others on the West Side. Trammell is not the government, and not a particularly typical representative of it.
Jay,
Lets review what actually happened.
“Some guy” comes on here and advocates stealing stuff from some people because other people “need” it. I don’t make myself the victim. I state that I should be able to stop myself from being the victim of the theft. I then ask what is wrong with slavery. (I can’t ever get a good answer for the slavery question from anyone on this site. I wonder why people can’t tell me why slavery is bad?)
I did rip him and his immoral understanding of reality and his misrepresentation of Christianity as an apologist for, or the foundation of the moral reasoning for socialism.
Believe it or not, you aren’t the first person to think me a prick. While I was in grad school, a woman in my class would cross herself and pray every time I gave a presentation. I think it may be because people are unable to explain what is wrong with slavery.
East End Community Services and their affiliates do a lot of good things
So how do we get “a lot of good things” happening on the west side (and vice versa). Why doesn’t all of Dayton benefit from the best from East End and the best from Dayton Urban League as well as any other players?
Trammell is not the government, and not a particularly typical representative of it.
I was contrasting the East End version of social justice with the Jeremiah Wright and Raleigh Trammell version. What percent of poverty based assistance is used as effectively as East End versus Wright/Trammell? While this isn’t a white vs black or east end vs west side issue, we do need to sort through the issue of playing the race card to hide corruption. Trammell is a convenient exemplar since he’s in the papers–who cares if he’s typical. The problem is political agendas getting in the way of social justice. What good could have been done by Wesley Community Center and Dayton Urban League had Trammell-style politics not been in play?
Recalling the point of this thread, Glen Beck is averse to the phrase “social justice.” That’s because “social justice” gets corrupted by political correctness and socialism. One way of hiding that is by playing the race card. Regardless of any race context, though, “<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=\"Poor+people\"+need+\"bunch+of+incompetent+hacks+running+around+acting+busy\"")Poor people don't need … a bunch of incompetent hacks running around acting busy.” (or worse).
Oops…(maybe this will work…)
…“Poor people don’t need … a bunch of incompetent hacks running around acting busy.”
Wait…slavery? Are YOU serious? You obviously don’t know a thing about slavery. When you work, does someone stand over you & beat you if you don’t work fast enough? Do you not have the choice to to find other work or to pursue other opportunities? Are you not even able to move to another country if you so choose? People don’t answer your question because it’s ridiculous, and quite frankly it’s a slap in the face to those who have really had to endure a life slavery. You live in a country where you have the right to make your own choices and choose what you do with your life, so if you feel like you’re a “slave” then you have no one to blame but yourself.
As for his “immoral” understanding of reality and misrepresentation of Christianity, maybe he was trying to point out that nothing can be stolen from you if it’s freely given for the benefit of those less fortunate than you, but it doesn’t surprise me that you are too ego-centric to accept that. I don’t know what makes you think that your interpretation of christianity is better than anyone else, but when someone is trying to encourage people to give charitably and you come along and call them immoral for doing so, I’m fairly certain it’s obvious who’s views are misguided. So please, go ahead and call me an immoral, misguided, marauding, hypocritical socialist because it’s obvious that your judgment is skewed, and your sad little arguments are full of fail.
Jay,
Why are you so angry? It comes through in your words. I also happen to think you are not being very clear, nor addressing Jesse’s post with accuracy. Perhaps some fresh air prior to posting will help.
What is wrong with slavery? The application of force to another person to entrench them in activities of your choosing instead of theirs. Kind of how you point out all the freedoms that he has to not feel like a slave, but you are supporting Michael’s post that declares the government is god and Jesse should like it when force is applied to him.
Please slow down and read the words Jay. Michael did not say give charitably. He said, you should not have a problem when the application of force is used against you. That the majority determines what is moral by means of vote. That the individual no longer matters. This is the part you should re-read in Michaels post, maybe twice, with fresh air in between readings. And maybe after.
Jay, maybe you have clear argument somewhere in the mess of words that you posted. Take the time to think it through. Until then, I guess Jesse will make sense and you will sound like a bitter, angry, unclear individual in need of some fresh air.
I did seem to make Jay angry didn’t I.
I had to reread my post to ensure that I hadn’t said I was a slave. Which I didn’t.
I also had to ensure that I hadn’t asked for someone to list bad conditions of slavery or possible consequences of slavery. I didn’t. I asked for someone to define what is wrong with slavery. Rob, congratulations, you pass the reading comprehension portion of the test.
Jay, I have a question that I hope is not too silly for you to answer. What if I, your slave owner, said to you, “I will not hit you for not working fast enough anymore, sorry about that. I will also no longer take 100% of your goods and distribute them as I see fit, I will only take 99% of your good for distribution. I will only hit you if you hide your production from me or attempt to do things on the “prohibited list.”” Is this moral? Does this make it “not slavery?”
What if after you answer, “No, that is still slavery.” (Which I am assuming you will answer). And you say, “It is slavery because you can’t leave.” I ask the question, “What if you can leave and go to any other slave master in my family? You can choose my brother, my sister, my aunt, my uncle, you can choose to go to any of those places and give up 99% of your production. Am I still wrong? Am I still being immoral?”
What if after you answer, “No, you can’t tell me that I have to go to another slave master. That means I am still a slave.” I, the slave master, ask again, “What is wrong with slavery then, that I might fix it; as I don’t want to be immoral?”
What then do you say? What is wrong with slavery?
Hint 1): Read Rob’s post above. He gives you a good start. Think about the intention and purpose of a man’s actions and activities, and why it is important that man be able to choose his own actions and activities.
Hint 2): Force; production; self-ownership; the right to what one produces.
No thoughts, huh? Want more hints?
Glen Beck is not mention in the Bible ….or is he????